A Devastating Alternate Second World War

July 30, 2007

New map of Europe...

I've decided to post this new map before releasing Segment 53.2, the map shows Europe as of August 15th 1949 - so you are seeing Europe as of the end of Part 53







34 comments:

CJ said...

Thanks Bobby.

Any chance of an Asia-Pacific map?

Anonymous said...

Olefin here

Very interesting - from what I can see -

A) Leningrad is barely holding on - Germans have taken Luga, Pskov, Dno

B) Kiev and the Eastern Ukraine are still in Russian hands by August 15, 1949

C) The German attack seems to have been stopped cold by the Russians somehow between July 15, 1949 and August 15, 1949 - which considering how fast they were falling back doesn’t seem possible unless somehow the Germans got distracted. The Minsk pocket has been erased - but there have been almost no gains near Leningrad and the Russians stopped the attack in central Russia.

One comment Bobby

That long finger of Finland going in between Norway and Sweden most likely shouldn’t be there - cant imagine the Russians holding onto that finger - it has no resources and any forces there would be easily destroyed. Most likely they pulled out of that area and have a more coherent front - i.e. why put your guys in a noose to hold onto an area that has no strategic or mineral significance?

Bobby Hardenbrook said...

Actually, Pskov hasn't fallen yet as of August 15th, its pretty much right on the front lines though.

Also, Smolensk has fallen as of August 15th. Its kinda hard to tell from this high level map. So, the Germans have made substantial progress but the Soviets have established a coherent front in the North.

You make a good point about Finland, I should probably modify the map

Anonymous said...

Olefin here again

Looks like Smolensk may have fallen as well - but not Bryansk or Orel from what I can see.

Anonymous said...

Olefin here - Bobby Pskov is right on the border with Latvia and Estonia - but your map clearly shows the Germans are well beyond that area - either the map needs to be adjusted or Pskov has definitely fallen

Bobby Hardenbrook said...

You're right Olefin, I was thinking of Novgorad.

The front as of August 15th extends roughly from Leningrad south to Novgorad, then south to a point about 30km east of Smolensk, then south until joining with the front in the Ukraine. Bryansk is about 50km east of the front.

Bobby Hardenbrook said...

The German salient extending towards Moscow is due to the German capture of Smolensk.

Anonymous said...

Olefin here

Bobby any idea how the fix to the discussion board is going?

Anonymous said...

Caracalla here

I wonder why the Germans have been stopped? Also I wonder if the reason why the Germans have stopped is because their gearing up for a huge offensive?

Bobby Hardenbrook said...

Well, logistics and Soviet resistance is why the Germans have been stopped.

About the discussion board, I'll contact my brother and see whats happening with it.

Bobby Hardenbrook said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Logistics shouldn’t be much of a problem in the North - the Germans have control of the Baltic Sea and can move stuff in by ship - and the ports there fell so fast that most likely Riga and other ports are still operational - especially since the Russians didn’t expect an attack in that area.

However in the middle I can see Minsk holding them up till they rebuild the rail hub there. By the way if they are past Smolensk then they have broken thru the Beria line cleanly - that means the line is no longer an obstacle in that area - by your own description they would be well past it if they are 30km beyond Smolensk.

Anonymous said...

Olefin here

Bobby would normally post this on the discussion board but since there is no board - yet - a question - in the Feb 22, 1939 post in the Eurasian War you mentioned German and Finnish units crossed into Sweden.

Are there still any organized Finnish units that are part of the Axis armies?

If so are they moving into Northern Sweden and the strip of Finland the Russians evacuated to build up for potential operations in Finland itself later this year?

Also - is the Finnish government in exile staying in Berlin or will they relocate to Sweden to be closer to Finland in the coming days?

February 22nd 1939
Finland surrenders to the Soviet Union when Helsinki falls after weeks of heavy house to house fighting. German and Finish units trapped in northern Finland cross west into Sweden and begin driving south towards Lulea. Several thousand German soldiers are taken prisoner before German ships or aircraft can evacuate them from southwestern Finland. A Finish government in exile is quickly established in Berlin

Bobby Hardenbrook said...

Question : can someone point me to a map showing Soviet transportation infrastructure circa early to mid 1940's. I'm thinking of a map showing rail lines, major roads, and ports.
I need more information about the Soviet transportation network to make sure I stay plausible.

About Finland, there is still a Finnish government-in-exile in Berlin, backed by the Germans of course, and it has contacts in Sweden and even inside Finland itself to a very limited degree. There are a couple of Finnish exile government infantry divisions, composed of exiled Finns as well as the forces that evacuated back in 1939

Bobby Hardenbrook said...

A new Asia-Pacific maps is in the works. I'll post it when its ready

Bobby Hardenbrook said...

Also, about the discussion board. It turns out my brother needed to buy a new computer, and he is still in the process of getting the new system set up. Bad news, it might not be back up until this weekend. The good news is that he'll be using a better server that has better performance and will be easier to maintain.

In the meanwhile, we have the commentary sections here on the blog

Anonymous said...

Olefin here

http://www.lulu.com/content/278415 - PDF downloadable map of the Russian transportation network circa 1941 - it’s a small charge but may be worth it

I know I put up a link as well in the discussion about Finland that had a map of the rail network around Leningrad to Murmansk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Corridor has some good info - and shows that the route they used in WWII OTL wouldn’t be usable here - it goes right thru Iran - also a lot of the shipping went over the Caspian Sea - which in OTL was a safe zone but here has German aircraft and ships on it to contest any shipping

http://hwar1941.narod.ru/ewfram.htm - good site but not the best translation - has military maps of the Great Patriotic War -

shows that there was a road that went around Minsk to the north that the Germans could use to bypass Minsk and which they used during WWII OTL after they had the garrison surrounded in Minsk - most likely this road is being used again Bobby.

That is why them being held up by Minsk itself isnt 100 percent correct - they could use this road to go around Minsk to the north and support fully the drive in the center no matter how long the Russians held Minsk proper.

Anonymous said...

Olefin

http://www.belarusguide.com/images/nature/souavto.jpg - unfortunately I have no idea when some of those roads were built - the WWII campaign map shows a road to the north - most likely a dirt road - that is also on this map - that road would let traffic go around Minsk

Anonymous said...

Olefin here - Bobby were any of those links helpful - trying to find more - you may want to contact CJ or Daniel - they may have better info

CJ said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Ctwaterman here

Bobby- I Emailed you a link to the map of 1940's Russia I had posted on the web site.

There is a railway link going directly from Riga to Smolensk along with one comming from Minsk through Smolensk and on to Moscow.

Anonymous said...

why is it so small

Bobby Hardenbrook said...

Thanks for all the info on Soviet transportation everyone, will be useful in plotting things out.

As for why the map is so small, I just fixed it. For both the European map and the Asia/Pacific map if you click on the image on the blog post then you'll see the full sized image

Anonymous said...

The problem with Soviet road maps of the time is that the Soviets had great ability at making temporary roads. A road that was built to relieve a city could be gone in months. The Road of Life into Leningrad is the most famous example of this.

If the Soviets are going to abandon the finger I still say it makes a heck of a lot more tactical sense to stay in front of it, and the most valuable Swedish mines, than to pull back from it. If they are not going to be slaves to the lines on a map, they should do it in a way that benefits them in several ways, not the least of which is denying a vital strategic asset to the enemy.

Anonymous said...

Olefin here

It makes no sense for them to keep the finger of Finland that protrudes between Norway and Sweden if they have withdrawn from all of Sweden. While it would be defensible when the AfD held Norway, now with the Germans in full control of both countries it would be suicidal to keep troops there - you might as well tell them going in they are dead men.

And the Soviets need every man they can get - defending an area that has no resources and no strategic value by leaving men there with their heads in a noose would be about as dumb as it gets.

As for the mines in Sweden - they are back in German hands - and you can see why - as Bobby has said the Northern Front has stabilized by Aug 15 -and I bet a big part of what helped stabilize it was 80,000 or so men from out of Sweden. If you try to keep the mines then most of them are going to have to stay there - and that means no reinforcements from Sweden - and possibly no Leningrad and no Novgorod and no Bryansk in Soviet hands. Looking at it that way its easy to see why the mines were abandoned.

Anonymous said...

Olefin here again

Bobby I do have one question about operations in the north - you have said the Germans, Free Finns and Swedes wont be ready for ops in the North for 6-12 months.

However there is one big inviting target there that they may try to take - and where a lot of the Soviet forces out of Sweden may have gone to.

Have you heard of Petsamo? It is right next to Kirkenes - and it has huge nickel deposits - and I mean huge. And those deposits are right next to the Norwegian border.

Two questions then - did the Germans try to either take them or knock those mines out with either air or long range artillery when the Russians opened their counteroffensive last year?

If not are they trying to get them now - that nickel source is huge - in German hands it would seriously - and I mean very seriously - harm Soviet tank production. In WWII that nickel was a huge resource for the Germans - some references say almost 1/3 of German tank production had at least some Petsamo nickel in it. It also has important uses in the petrochemical industry.

While a general invasion into Finland isnt in the cards those nickel mines are basically dangling fruit for the Germans - have they either already grabbed them, knocked them out or are about to go for them with forces from Kirkenes in Norway with the Soviets now having abandoned Sweden?

Anonymous said...

The defensive terrain in front of the mines is better, the distance needed to be defended is shorter and more men could be moved. I'm sorry, but it was a massive strategic mistake and, for a resource hungry empire, bad writing. I know Bobby's word is law, especially when you agree with it, but it makes no logical sense to give up a valuable resource when keeping it helps you meet every other long and short term objective you have.

However, it is not on my list of impossibles, things that could never happen.

Anonymous said...

I think if the Soviets hadnt burned their reserves in men as they did they may have held onto the mines - but they are a hollow giant now, and men are at a premium.

Plus the Germans are now at the door of Mother Russia - i.e. Smolensk, Minsk, Leningrad and Moscow. If they take those and hold them it wont matter much if the Soviets retain mines - there wont be a country left to use the ore.

CJ said...

Will you people just register already so we can stop with this "Anonymous" nonsense. We're probably going to be here until the weekend, so can all of you please register to make this easier to follow.

Anonymous said...

Hey I put an Olefin here on all my posts. I will see about registering.

john1761 said...

Hi, I am now a registered member.

Archangel said...

Bobby, could you tell us the impact of the divergence since the thirties on political ideas?

We know from the posts and the board that events in the 30´s turned the west and USA into a more anti-communist feeling.

But which are the effects according to the individual political beliefs
(Anarquism, Trostkyism, Communism, Socialism, Social-Democracy, Social Liberalism, Radical-Liberalism, Centrism, Christian Democracy, Liberal-Conservativism, Conservativism)?

I mean, how it changes people's ideas individually?

I am asking this to have an idea of how historical characters in any liberated countries will position themselves politically in the Post-War.

Anonymous said...

Olefin here

For everyone's information - Bobby told me last week he was close to his next update - so with luck we may see it this week - however dont know if we will have a board to discuss it with

文章 said...

AV,無碼,a片免費看,自拍貼圖,伊莉,微風論壇,成人聊天室,成人電影,成人文學,成人貼圖區,成人網站,一葉情貼圖片區,色情漫畫,言情小說,情色論壇,臺灣情色網,色情影片,色情,成人影城,080視訊聊天室,a片,A漫,h漫,麗的色遊戲,同志色教館,AV女優,SEX,咆哮小老鼠,85cc免費影片,正妹牆,ut聊天室,豆豆聊天室,聊天室,情色小說,aio,成人,微風成人,做愛,成人貼圖,18成人,嘟嘟成人網,aio交友愛情館,情色文學,色情小說,色情網站,情色,A片下載,嘟嘟情人色網,成人影片,成人圖片,成人文章,成人小說,成人漫畫,視訊聊天室,性愛,AV女優,美女,成人圖片區,080苗栗人聊天室