I've finally started a project I've been thinking about doing for years, which is to go back and clean up all the old parts.
If you re-read part 1 you should find that the formatting has been updated to match the formatting I've used for more recent parts. But more importantly the writing is generally better now IMHO. I'm just a better writer now than I was 10 years ago when I started this thing.
I've also tried to clarify points that may have been ambiguous previously. I'll be very interested to here people's thoughts.
(you may have to refresh the Eurasian War timeline page to see the new link for part 1, it is a google hosted document just like the most recent parts)
Lastly, I'll try to see if I can make some progress to getting the board back up.
January 11, 2008
Part 1 re-polished!
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36 comments:
about the board if need be i'm ready to offer some of my own webspace and bdd space and my technical knowledge to maintain it if need be, it would free your brother from the bother and we should no more have to wait for so much time when the board has a problem since it is hosted by a professional company ( french OVH )
I'll talk to my brother this weekend and see what he wants to do. It is starting to look like we might need to consider other options if he doesn't have the time to maintain it.
I'll let you know how we want to move forward
Looks good.
Bobby, did you get the email I sent you yesterday with the naval questions? I forgot to sign it from CJ.
I have that email, will read it later this weekend
Olefin here
Bobby I do have two comments about the redone Part 1.
1) Can you add the size of the Russian force that invaded Poland into the update? You mention a follow up force of 600,000 men and 2000 tanks but not the initial invasion force.
2) Did the Polish fleet get away to Germany (they had several submarines and destroyers in OTL that not only got away but did some damage later to the Germans) or was it sunk in battles with the Soviet navy or air force? Also did the Soviets push into Danzig during their invasion or did they leave that area alone due to it being full of so many Germans?
Hi Olefin,
I'm going to avoid making too many additions to the old parts. For now its more of a polishing and not really a re-write. I'm correcting the formatting to match current parts and cleaning up parts that just aren't well written.
I don't want to get into adding more details and whatnot. I would like to do that eventually but for now I'm limiting the scope of this project to a polish/edit. Even just polishing is a major project as there are 40+ parts that need significant polishing and editing.
And what has your brother said about the board, can he get it back up on time ?
Olefin here
Sorry Bobby - one man's polishing is another man's rewrite. Can see what you mean about not adding details.
Can you answer my question then about the Polish fleet in the form of a question then instead of in the polished update - did the fleet units join the German fleet (and then later get taken over by the Germans when relations between them and the Polish government soured) or did they get sunk in fighting with the Soviets?
Olefin here
Actually Bobby I just thought of a question in general for the Eurasian War that applies to the events of 1949 - are there still Free Yugoslavia, Free Polish, Free Swedish (i.e. anti-German and Russian) exile governments or have they lapsed with the long length of time since the Eurasian War? I know the Germans disbanded the Free Polish govt on their soil but is there one still in existence on Russian or AfD soil (i.e. London or San Francisco)?
Did the Swedes for instance ever have a puppet Swedish Communist govt or did the Russians just dispense with that and flat out annex Northern Sweden to Russia?
Or do they still exist but they are nothing more than exiles going thru the motions much like the the exiled Royal families of Greece, Russia and Yugoslavia did in OTL?
Regarding the Polish Fleet. I'm thinking that a good chunk of it, say at least 40%, probably escaped to the west. Some of it might still be operating alongside the royal navy even into 1949, for the symbolic value if for nothing else.
Polish ships might very well have seen action from 45' on.
Regarding those minor power exile governments. They probably all still exist and have some tiny token forces fighting with the British but they are probably little more than pure British-controlled puppets and not a big factor by 1949.
The Polish may have a few divisions fighting with the British as a lot of Poles fled into exile immediately after the Soviet conquest back in 37'. There is probably a decent sized Polish-exile community in Britain
Olefin here
Bobby have you given any thought to Part Zero as you called it last year - i.e. the explanation of where and what the POD was in 1934 that among other things had Albania as part of Italy and the Baltic States as part of Russia long before they happened in OTL? Let alone the events that made the US and AfD nations so hostile to the Russians that they would actually support Hitler in the Eurasian War as they did?
If so when would it come out - after you finish WWII or will you try to put it out sometime this year?
Regarding part 0, its one of several things in my "to do" list. It could happen this year...or in 2012, to be honest :)
My current thinking about the POD is that a butterly flapped its wings slightly different somewhere in the spring of 1934..... :)
But seriously, notice that in the polished version of Part 1 I removed the reference to 1934 as being the POD. I did this because an earlier POD probably makes more sense to get the changes evident in
part 1. I'm thinking now that 1933 makes more sense for the POD. The main changes I need to account for are the increased tensions between East and West, the soviet annexation of the Baltic States, and the Italian annexation of Albania
Olefin here
If its pushed back to 1933 could it be related to Hitler's rise to power in Germany - i.e. some kind of general communist uprising in Europe tied to the fascists acheiving power in Germany? Albania being taken over by Italy would be a relatively easy one - perhaps Mussolini pushes up his timetable so he grabs it after Austria becomes part of Germany.
The Baltics are different - they wouldnt have just willingly joined the Russians - they were many things but lovers of the Soviets they were not.
It could also be related to a different course for the Spanish Civil War. Remember that in the ATL the Spanish civil war lasts until 1938, and Spain is more closely allied with Germany. So perhaps the increased tensions could be due in part to a longer, nastier, Spanish Civil War with more involvement by the Germans and Soviets on the opposing sides
Here is a very preliminary outline of a time line of events, including a POD...
Early 1933 : After the Reichstag is burned and the NAZI party begins rounding up German communists, German communists take a tougher stance against the NAZI's than it took in OTL. 1933 is marked with a series of violent riots and strikes conducted by German communists that are suppressed brutally by the NAZI party. There is talk of a "German Civil War". However, it never quite becomes a true civil war as the military remains loyal to Hitler's NAZI party. By the end of 1933, the NAZI's have achieved absolute power but there was a lot more resistance and violence during 1933 than there was in OTL.
With Germany appearing in near Civil War for much of 1933, Stalin takes a somewhat more aggressive stance on spreading communism and in defending the Soviet Union itself.
1934 : There is a general increase in socialist/communist activity across Europe, due in part to Stalin's increased backing for various communist groups and due in part to a reaction to the events in Germany in 1933
1935 : German troops enter the Rhineland several months earlier than in OTL, due to a slightly earlier re-militirization of Germany. The German army is a bit more radical due to the events of 1933
1936 : In the month after Germany re-unites with Austria, the Soviet Union invades and occupies the Baltic States. This is following a general communist uprising there instigated by the Soviets.
The Spanish Civil War breaks out about the same time as in OTL, but the Germans and Soviets give increased backing to the oppossing sides.
In late 1936, the "crisis of November" occurs. Following NAZI propaganda accussing Checkoslovakia of mis-treating ethnic Germans, the German army begins to mobilize. The Soviet Union issues a stern warning and guaruntees checkoslovakian independence. For several days it looks like war might break out. But Hitler backs down, and both sides step back from the brink. This is the event that convinces Stalin to invade Poland the following year.
Early 1937 : Italy invades and occupies Albania following an ultimatum to join Italy that is ignored.
This occurs earlier than in OTL because Mussolini doesn't want to be ignored and left off the table as the Germans and soviets manuever for power in Europe.
Heading into mid 1937, tensions in Europe are hitting a peak....
This is a very early first draft attempt
Wow nice first draft attempt bobby and this explains a lot of how the SW timeline got so hot,
I have swo questions like OTL did the Dutch Marinus van der Lubbe a communist set et the Reichstag fire.
Two did the Night of the Long Knives happen in the SW timeline ore is the SA which was the main target more loyal to Adolf Hitler then the where in OTL.
Suffice it to say that the fire starts basically as in OTL and at the same time. The POD is that the German communists react stronger when the NAZI's start to round people up after the fire. I need to do some research to see what could have triggered this response.
After the Reichstag fire, events in 1933 unfold quite a bit different. It is a quite violent year in Germany, with many riots, huge strikes, clashes, etc. The SA is needed to help in these street battles. There is a probably an equivalent of the "Night of the Long Knives" but it happens later than in OTL. I can flesh this out after more research.
The draft for Part 0 seems good to me, Bobby.
Olefin here
Sounds good to me as well Bobby. I would figure that the fighting in the Baltic States would be extensive and that Germany would have sent volunteers (especially to Lithuania since they have a lot of ties to that particular nation). That would have really started Stalin on his path to war with Germany - especially if the German volunteers cost the Soviets a couple of defeats during the takeover.
I.e. if Hitler says he wants war in Mein Kampf and sends volunteers to the Baltic States then we had better stop him now before he sends a lot more than volunteers into the Soviet Union
The only other thing would be where the US anti-communist feelings come from in the US which was so anti-Soviet they supplied Hitler big time until 1942 or 43- possibly could have some kind of Communist activity there tied to the Depression - i.e. attempted assasination of Roosevelt, attack on the US Congress, some very violent strikes where the police took some major casualties and then find out the perpetrators were Comintern members under Soviet orders to launch the strikes, etc..
Good lead in. It also would tie in well as to why Ireland tossed aside its neutrality to join the AfD if there was widespread communist tension in Europe. I think Olefin and I came up with something like that a while ago but sadly without the board being up I can't check.
Olefin here
Bobby you may want to take the posts on the draft part zero and start a new section - i.e. something like "Thoughts on Part Zero" - if you like. Looks like it is generating a lot of interest.
Thanks for the answer bobby regarding the SA as whey never have heard from them in the SW timeline and I would imagine that after a alter Night of the Long Knives the SA would be absorb in the SS ore some kind of merger.
Odds are that Poland would have sent "volunteers" before the Germans did.
"There is probably a decent sized Polish-exile community in Britain"
Aren't Poles abroad in USA(several million) and other countries the only majority Polish population left ?
If I read right your story, there was a part when Jews were finally exterminated and the same fate was going to happen to Poles and other people's that Nazi Germany viewed as "untermenschen"
Bobby, one minor note:
"1934 : There is a general increase in socialist/communist activity across Europe..."
It's better remove the word socialist or change to "1934 : There is a general increase in (communist infiltrated) socialist / communist activity across Europe...", because socialist means a whole different thing than communism.
I think the other European members of the board would agree.
Olefin here
For a while there would have been a substantial number of Polish refugees who would have traveled thru Germany prior to the German crackdown on them after they drove the Soviets out of Poland. Remember the Polish govt in exile originally was out of Germany in the story until the Germans had no further use for them.
Olefin :All Poles have been ethnicly cleansed from German territories by German government years ago, and Germany begun systematic mass executions combined with concentration camps.
http://www.geocities.com/cypher_zzz/shattered/part35.htm
"In Poland, the final date for the expulsion of Slavs is reached. In the Ukraine and the eastern reaches of the Greater German Reich millions of Slavic refugees are huddled in massive and squalid camps, where Soviet agents have already begun the task of fomenting radical socialism among the masses of homeless Poles. Poland itself is now a vast empty wasteland, some parts almost completely depopulated."
"Any Poles in the camps suspected of being tied to socialist or rebel elements are to be summarily executed. Himmler orders the SS to begin constructing a new series of concentration camps to deal with 'suspect Poles'."
It could be that USA with its several milions of Poles remains now the largest concentration of Polish people after the German genocide. I suspect they could form one of the most active voter lobby base towards destruction of Germany by US forces, eager to get revenge for what Germany did.
Correction:some have been rescued by Soviets.
http://www.geocities.com/cypher_zzz/shattered/part34.htm
"Germany announces the extension of the 'Slavic Exclusion Zone' to include all of the former-Poland. All non-Germanic Poles must emigrate to the east by June 1st. The Ukraine andGerman-occupied western Russia are now due to receive a titanic flood of Poles. Beria pledges to maintain his policy of allowing immigration of 'displaced Slavs'. What this really means is that Beria will take any Pole who he feels is useful to the Soviet Union, and not a single person more."
Anonymous,
I think Olefin is referring to the time period before the end of the EW. Where many Poles might have fled to the west (not just Germany) to escape the massive battles that would rage in Poland between the Soviet and German armies. Not to mention all the Polish refugees that would likely have crossed the border into Germany and elsewhere to escape the initial Soviet invasion.
While many might have returned to Poland once the Soviet armies were removed from Poland, likely those in Germany would be encouraged to do so just to get them out of Germany, I'd bet many would have moved on to the UK, France, and the US.
You're right that in once the EW ended and Poland was under Germany's boot not many Poles likely made it out (although I'd figure some might still make it West as Germany might actually encourage those who can leave to leave and they'll deal with those who can't later) except to the SU and then likely not many.
Olefin here
You are correct Shadow Knight - that is the period I was referring to - basically between the initial Soviet invasion and the time the Germans shut down the Polish govt in exile and began their expulsions and crack downs on the Poles - during that time a substantial amount of Poles probably got out to France and Britain as they did in OTL - and thus could be the nucleus (along with American Poles as well I would bet) of several Polish divisions in the AfD.
Same with their fleet units that escaped - they probably fought on the side of the Germans for a while and then left for Britain once they were declared persona non grata.
Olefin here
This is the break point where the Poles and the Germans broke company - before that Poles and Germans were allies and that is probably when the Poles who escaped to the West made the trip
June 26th 1941
SS and Gestapo units go on a rampage in the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw, killing thousands and sending thousands more to the rapidly expanding "concentration camp" system.
June 27th 1941
The free Polish government-in-exile, based in Germany, is disbanded by Germany after it sends news of the massacre to Britain. The British choose not to release news of the event to the general public. The Polish resistance, or at least what remains of it, disbands into inactive "sleeper" cells.
Olefin here
Bobby one quick question since its been a long time since I read part I - did you originally have the invasion of Poland start on Sept 11,1937 or did you change the date after the events of 9/11 here so as to make that date a calamity in both worlds (since you would have written Part I several years beforehand)?
Also you need to fix the repolished Part I - take a look at the date - you have it going from Sept 11, 1937 to Feb 12, 1937 instead of Feb 12, 1938 as the timeline states.
I corrected the dates for part 1, good catch.
Regarding the 9/11 date for the Soviet invasion of Poland, that was the original. Weird coincidence eh
Olefin here
9/11 was the original date? Damn talk about some foreshadowing there. Have a feeling if you do get this published one day that the publishers are going to not believe you picked that date years before it had any real meaning in the OTL world.
Olefin here
Bobby had one other thing I wanted to ask you about - in OTL Danzig was a "free" area that was considered open for transit for Germany so they could get to East Prussia by land. When the Russians invaded Poland did the Germans move into Danzig to keep the Russians out?
Second question - did the Germans already have Memel from Lithuania prior to the Eurasian War starting (it had a very high German population) or did the Russians grab it when they grabbed the Baltic States?
If there was a communist uprising I could see Germany moving into Memel to restore order - and then refusing to leave after the Russians took over the rest of the Baltics. That right there could be a big reason why Stalin figured eventually they would go to war - could even be a flashpoint where both sides backed down.
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